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July 09, 2004

Comments

lucia

Chairm: If I understand your response to Trey you are saying you don't believe him when he says it's difficult for same sex couples to adopt overseas.

You disbelieve him based on these things:

1) A smaller fraction of same sex couples have adopted children than do cohabiting couples. (Statistic provided.)

2) You claim, providing no statistic, or proof whatsoever, that a larger fration of the adopted children in same sex couples are from overseas countries. (Dubious. If true it might be due to the relative ages of the adopted children-- as same sex couples my only recently have begun to cohabit and adopt.)

3) Out of country adoption has increased steadily because few american babies are available. (True)

4) Some US states make it difficult for same sex couple to adopt. (True.)

5) Lots of babies come from places other than Asia. (You provide no information to suggest these other countries have liberal adoption laws vis-a-vis same sex couples. My impression is most do not. Guatemala does not permit gays to adopt. As I think it is your job to support your claim that other countries have liberal adoption laws, I will leave it to you to compile additional statistics.)

6) You speculate, providing no evidence, that lots of home study social workers don't check whether or not the adoptive couple is a same sex couple. (Whether or not the social workers didn't check would be irrelevant if the foreign countries asked for paper work verifying the identity of the adoptive parents. I assume they do. Same sex marriage would then make it easier for the countries to determine the the partners in the married couple are gay. When the countries prohibit adoption by gays, but permit adoption by single people, this would likely reduce the number of foreign adoptions into same sex homes.)

How does any of this contradict Trey's observation that it is, indeed, more difficult for same sex couples to adopt from overseas? They seem to be non-sequitors to me!

trey

Lets quote your comment again and then correct my misreading...

"Chairm: "First, there is a trend in which same-sex couples adopt children from out-of-country to avoid the mom-dad priority that many defend in our own country. If encouraged with SSM, this would add children to our society who would remain fatherless or motherless."

the statistics you quoted of out of country adoptions and the 'ease' of these are absolutely MEANINGLESS (lucia set it better... they are non-sequitors). You are speaking of adoption overall, not the adoption internationally of GAY couples.

before you make this supposition you need to prove a couple things...

a. it is simpler to adopt overseas for same-sex couples than to adopt domestically.

b. that the trend is actually real.

the facts completely disprove proposition A. The laws to adopt overseas are restrictive, if not completely prohibitive for gay individuals and couples. The laws in many states are very liberal for gay couples to adopt (23 to be exact have 'good/liberal' records of gay adoption, 17 are 'mixed, 10 are poor). (and incidently, there is NOT a shortage of children up for adoption in the States, there is a shortage of white infants, black, mixed-race, hispanic and other minorities and older children are sadly in 'oversupply')

You quote a trend "there is a trend in which same-sex couples adopt children from out-of-country " (unshown and unproven and against the experience of someone who is _in the middle of it all_) based on a proposition "to avoid the mom-dad priority that many defend in our own country" (completely and utterly false).

Your supposition fails miserably.

Additionally, you assert again: ", and that they are more likely to have children of foreign origin, etc"

again, completely unsupported by fact and experience.

In fact, only _13_% of ALL adopted children (both in gay and straight families) are foreign born. Though the number is growing (almost 20,000 last year), it is still a small percentage of the number of adopted children last year (estimates range from 150k minimum to 250k since detailed records of private adoptions are not kept and public/international adoptions are not great)See here and here for facts. An adopted child is most likely to be domestic (by 80-90%) than foreign and that is doubly true for gay couples.

lucia

Ab,
I'm sorry to intrude, but there's something I'm trying to understand, and perhaps y'all can help me. I don't see the big differences between "Parenthood", "Motherhood", and "Fatherhood" which are sometimes brought up in these discussions.
I think the only one who can explain this idea is Chairm. Like you, I don't see a big difference.

chairm

First, a mea culpa. I made a clumbsy statement that tied together two things that I have no reason to tie together. And sincerely did not intend to tie together. But I did and I'm sorry that I did, because what followed was a misunderstanding that probably boggled others as much as it boggled me. I apologize.

To wit I said: "2. Same-sex couples adopt children from out-of-country **to avoid the mom-dad priority that many defend in our own country.**"

I have no reason to connect the second part (within the ** symbols) with international adoption by same-sex couples. It was not my intention to make such an odd connection but clearly the words written can reasonably be read as if the international option made adoptions possible that would be less likely to succeed domestically.

Same-sex couples do adopt internationally. It has become more common and there is an upward trend. [To repeat, this trend is not driven by avoidance of domestic restrictions in the sense of seeking an advantage out-of-country.]

In adopting, same-sex couples do avoid the mom-dad priority. They contradict that priority which is widely defended. But they do that whether they adopt internationally or domestically. My point was that fatherlessness and motherlessness is increased in our society when children are brought here by couples who intend to make homes that are either fatherless or motherless. And my original suggestion, in response to Lucia's question, was that the enactment of SSM would likely encourage this practice.

At first I was genuinely puzzled by the responses to my statement. Now, I think if one reads the earlier discussion again, it becomes clear that there was a disconnect between what I defended and what trey criticized (rightly) in this regard. We seemed to be having two different discussions.

Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding that was sparked by something I wrote and did not correct earlier.

My internal editor must have gone on vacation.

chairm

Nothing that has been posted thusfar seems to confirm a significant claim made by Trey and about which I am skeptical.

>> Trey: "It is much easier to adopt domestically for gay couples (or single men for that matter) than it is to adopt internationally. The trend is exact opposite as you state. Gay and lesbian couples adopt overwhelmingly domestically, and overwhelmingly more so than straight parents."

1. The application of the restrictions is the key.

These restrictions exist both domestically and internationally. They are applied differently from count-to-county -- even within Florida -- and depend very heavily on the bias of the local social workers who perform the home-studies for the legal authorities here and on behalf of foriegn authorities. I should add that our judges also vary considerably in how they balance the doctrine of "best interests of the child", the mom-dad priority, and official restrictions (or the lack) on same-sex couples or homosexual individuals.

For more on this, google for social workers, adoption, and homosexuality. Contact various adoption agencies and so forth. Here is one article that is representative of experiences with which I am quite familiar. I don't claim that it is definitive, but representative. (The article is not entirely accurate and it seems biased in the direction that probably gives it credibility for pro-SSM advocates.)

http://www.thejournalnews.com/adopt/adopt17main.html

[quote]There are no national figures on gay adoptions; one reason is that few states allow joint - or simultaneous - adoptions by same-sex couples. And many social workers don't ask about a single applicant's sexual orientation.[/quote]

The lack of national stats will confound both trey and myself when nailing down the precise ratios of domestic versus international, same-sex versus man-woman, and so forth. I'll remark further on this in the next post.

Naturally, same-sex couples can be expected to choose adoption agencies and countries based on maximizing their chances. At the very least, they'd seek advice in minimizing the risk that unfavorable restrictons would be applied in practice. This is generally so with all adoptions, including those made by same-sex couples.

Given the increase in international adoptions in the general population, it seems reasonable to expect that the rate of international adoptions has also increased for the population of gay and lesbian couples who adopt. [This is the trend that I had originally thought trey had claimed was the exact opposite.] Some of the increase in single woman adoptions can be attributed to lesbian couples, I think.

I don't contend that the increase has been of the same extent as that for married couples, straight singles, etc. Nor that it has overtaken the rate of domestic adoptions. Nor that international is less difficult than domestic. Only that, increasingly same-sex couples (including those who go through lone parent adoptions as first stage) have adopted internationally.

If the enactiment of SSM encouraged such adoptions, and no countervailing measures were applied, then more homes in our society would be deliberately designed to be fatherless or motherless.

lucia

Chairm said: Contact various adoption agencies and so forth.
and later Naturally, same-sex couples can be expected to choose adoption agencies and countries based on maximizing their chances.

I believe that Trey, and his partner, who have adopted children domestically already pointed out that he HAS contacted adoption agencies. He looked into this issue when he adopted and found that it was easier to adopt domestically!

Absent data, I would assume that Trey's experience with the adoption process tells us more about the process than do your speculations. This is especially true because he actually implemented the steps you suggest one should take to discover whether international or national adoptions are easier!

In any case, much of what you say suggests that ssm might make it more difficult for gays to adopt in states that don't permit gays to adopt.

If, as you say, gay-sympathetic social workers do not ask unmarried people their sexual orientation, and permit single gays to adopt in violation of their local state laws, then SSM will make it harder for gays to get around the local state laws blocking gays from adoption. Why? Because if a couple is married, the social worker must note marital status and the gender of both spouses. This would make it virtually impossible for a sympathetic social worker to get around state law. (Assuming they actually are willing to violate their state laws-- which I have no way of knowing.)

Obviously, in states that already permit single gays to adopt, SSM will likely make very little difference. They can already adopt, and they don't need to pull the wool over some social workers eyes, nor do they need the social worker to lie for them.

chairm

Trey has experience. As do others. Informed opinions are not absent in this discussion.

The news article to which I linked reported on the experience of people who adopted from China, for instance. Also, the report quoted people directly involved in the issue of "don't ask, don't tell." Some agree that it is unethical to ommit information; others say that it is fine -- just don't lie if asked directly. There is also an opinion expressed in the piece that foreign restrictions, such as China's, would probably not be enforced in our country. The HRC and other sources also provide similar assessments.

While I don't agree with quite a bit of that article or HRC, on these points the informed opinions do not depart greatly from my own experience as well as the anecdotal information that comes up in discussions with social workers and with adoption agencies.

>>Lucia: "If, as you say, gay-sympathetic social workers do not ask unmarried people their sexual orientation, and permit single gays to adopt in violation of their local state laws, then SSM will make it harder for gays to get around the local state laws blocking gays from adoption."

Good point. That could pose a knotty issue for those who both advocate SSM and advocate that parents should be married. Needy children might be deprived of prospective adoptive couples. Maybe couples would forestall formalizing until after the adoption has been accomplished. Violation of state laws has been part of the recent push for SSM in places like San Fran. In this case the violations are in a grey area that doesn't get much publicity. But the enactment of SSM would probably encourage rather than discourage the blurring of this particular ethical line.

chairm

>>"only _13_% of ALL adopted children (both in gay and straight families) are foreign born. ... An adopted child is most likely to be domestic (by 80-90%) than foreign and that is doubly true for gay couples."

By this I guess you mean that 80-90% of adopted children under 18 are foreign born. But how could that be doubled for same-sex couples? I imagine you just mean it is "much more true" for same-sex couples (not just homosexual men). The percentage might be 85-95%, for example?

>>"Gay and lesbian couples adopt overwhelmingly domestically, and overwhelmingly more so than straight parents."

Adoptions are overwhelmingly domestic. [But some are more domestic than others. ;-)] I guess where we diverge on this is your characterization, "overwhelmingly more". That is where I'm skeptical.

HRC and the Urban Institute have produced some estimates of adoptive parents. While I've not seen their assumptions, they analyzed Census data on the presence of adopted children in households. That's like what I started to sketch in an earlier post.

For instance, they estimated that of New Jersey's female same-sex households who reported children, about 8% had adopted children. While I think it makes sense to factor in the availability of second-parent adoption in that state, it is also reasonable to expect that the local system would help, rather than hinder, lesbians who sought adoption of children internationally. The analysis also reported that about 3.5% of married couples had adopted children. Here it makes sense to factor in legal stepparent adoption. The lesbian rate is sufficiently higher than the married rate that it places into doubt the blanket claim that married couples have a lower percentage of foreign born adoptees than do same-sex couples in recent years.

Something similair was concluded in the analysis of California data. They estimated that 2% of married couples and 5% of same-sex couples had adopted children. Another example: an analysis of Census data concluded that nationwide about 6% of same-sex couples and 5.1% of married couples resided with adopted children.

So the national estimate for same-sex couples is just a tad higher than for married couples. That doesn't take into account lone adoptive parents and others who are parts of couples but adopt as singles. The New Jersey estimate at least suggests that where same-sex couples are increasingly seen by the social system as "married" -- as in second-parent adoption -- there's increased rates of adoption by same-sex couples in practice, as well. It would probably apply to international as well as domestic adoptions.

chairm

An important clarification:

The adoption rates estimated by HRC were based on the the count of households with children rather than all same-sex households with or without children. Likewise with married households.

lucia

>>As a baseline, consider Census 2000 data. Adopted children comprised about 2.6% of all the children in married homes and 1.7% of the children in the homes of unmarried couples (which is a category that includes same-sex homes).

Could you cite the specific document or web site containing this data. I have "Adopted Children and Stepchildren 2000" and it don't see these numbers. (Maybe I haven't looked hard enough?)

>>HRC and the Urban Institute have produced some estimates of adoptive parents.
One again, can you cite the article or web site so we can see the data or read their assumptions?

chairm

I can provide the info from memory. The documents may be on the web but I'm on vacation and haven't time to search. Here's a description of three of the reports:

1. The Williams Project / IGLSS analysis of Census 2000 published a report on same-sex couples raising children in California. In a table that compared households that included children, the report estimated that 2% of the children in married households, and 5% of those in same-sex households, were adopted. Sears and Badgett wrote it.

2. The author of the HRC's analysis of Census 2000 estimated that of the coupled households with children in New Jersey, 3.5% of married and 7.8% (or it might have been 8% -- my memory fails me on this one) of female same-sex couples lived with adopted children. [Vast majority of households with adopted children were married.] Written by Gates and Ost.

3. In the HRC report, "Cost of Marriage Inequality", the author estimated that nationally 6% of same-sex parents and 5% of married parents were raising children who had been adopted. This one was by either Gates or Bennet.

Re Item 1. Census 2000 counted 1.6 million adopted children -- 2% of all children in the country. That corresponds with the report's estimate of the percentage of adopted children in married households in California. I'm not entirely convinced of the 6% estimate for same-sex households, but it is close to my own very rough estimate -- as discussed in another thread on this site. (Galois and I discussed the Census).

Again, I don't have the Census tables on-hand here, but there are supporting tables for the adoption / stepchildren report you do have, Lucia, and these are probably downloadable from the Bureau's site. Some stats seem to stick to my grey matter but I don't have great recall of links and such; and I don't have use of my own computer for the time being.

Items 2 and 3 referred to the percentage of coupled households with children. Not all married or same-sex households have children in residence. About half of married and a third of same-sex households reported children in Census 2000.

I haven't seen the HRC's assumptions for calculating adoptive same-sex couples, however, the Census data indicated that 1.25 million married households had adopted children; that's about 5% of the 25 million married households with children. This and the HRC's estimate seem to correspond fairly well.

On the other hand, in the New Jersey report the authors said that the estimate of same-sex couples with children may be overstated due to the methods used with the sampling data (rather than the direct headcount). So the rates of adoption may be less reliable for the small sample of same-sex households (around 400 or so) than for the sample of married households (30-40 thousand). Just means more chance for error in related analyses regarding even smaller subgroups -- and comparisons of income and the like.

Sorry I can't provide more details at the moment. Maybe my hosts will give their young and capable daughter (brilliant 13-year-old) a research assignment to do while I'm on the lake. ;-)

I'll check-in later if I get a link or two for you.

chairm

Correction of type (obvious one I think but just in case it isn't obvious):

>>a coupla posts up I wrote: 80-90% of adopted children under 18 are foreign born. But how could that be doubled for same-sex couples ...


I meant to say 80-90% AREN'T foreign born.

lucia

>>Again, I don't have the Census tables on-hand here, but there are supporting tables for the adoption / stepchildren report you do have, Lucia, and these are probably downloadable from the Bureau's site

Yes, but they are not organized to provide statistics they way you site them. They tell us how many housholds contain children of different sorts. It's just "inverse" information.

I am not disputing your statistics, I'm just trying to track the references down to read them. (Particulaly since you say you don't remember the assumptions.)

I also wouldn't be surprised if more same sex non-married couples adopted than married couples. I would think when a woman give birth through artificial insemination, the partner would generally adopt. Adoption is not necessary for married couples in this case due to the presumption of paternity.

So, this situation would increase the number of adopted children for Same Sex partners in the census tally.

Thanks for the additional information on the refrences references-- I'll try to track them down.

lucia

>>that 2% of the children in married households, and 5% of those in same-sex households, were adopted. Sears and Badgett wrote it

I found this one-- the authors name helped with googling. It's called "Same Sex Couples and Same Sex Couple's raising Children in California". May 2004. I"m actually going to have to print out and highlight to figure out the numbers-- I find the ones you cite on page 14, and then find different ones on page 11! (The text will likely clarify. I think one may be US numbers, and the other Cali numbers.)

I'm also puzzled by the finding that a considerably larger fraction of same sex couple-parents are hispanic than other races. While this may very well be true, it also makes me wonder whether couples answering the census perceived the question the same way. (If they didn't that would make it difficult to draw really useful comparisons.)

Hispanics may live in groups more often without it necessarily signifying quite the same thing as whites living together. The US census also discusses the inaccuracies in getting accurate answers to the adoption question because some cultures often informally adopt. Their answers to the Census question can differ. (I know all about this informal adoption business because my Cuban grandmother and her sisters used to farm kids out to each other all the time! My aunt Dolo considers herself my dad's "second mom"; for that matter, Dad considers her his second mom!)

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