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August 06, 2004

Comments

lucia

Nice post. I agree with the recommendations. I don't think any politician will adopt them because, cynic that I am, I think the whole point of saying you are for unions is to avoid saying precisely what one is for. Until a law defining unions is enacted, "unions" could range from "everything associated to marriage except the word", to "something distinctly less".

Galois

Thanks Lucia. It's kind of like a politician saying he or she is for eliminating government waste. That's great, but unless we know exactly what they consider "waste" it's impossible to judge whether that's a good idea. I don't expect most politicians to follow these suggestions, but I hope the voters and journalists try to pin them down a little more and ask to see what concrete actions they have taken.

Jason Kuznicki

One very serious difficulty that I have with civil unions can be stated as follows:

Marriage for gays and lesbians means that they get all the same things straight people do.

Civil unions mean a separate institution, one that is subject to separate tinkering, separate qualifications, and a number of potentially invidious distinctions to be made in what is after all a very new institution. A civil union plan in Vermont may offer everything that a marriage does--but one can easily imagine plans that fall far short of this. It's not even much of a stretch to picture that Nebraska or Texas might implement a civil union plan that was nothing more than a registry of gay couples--so much the better to keep an eye on them.

lucia

Civil unions mean a separate institution, one that is subject to separate tinkering, separate qualifications, and a number of potentially invidious distinctions to be made in what is after all a very new institution

Yes, Jason. And I tend to suspect that's the whole point of using a different word! If you call it something different as a matter or law, then it's possible to define separates rights and responsibilities.

That's why, when I commented over at your site, one of my questions was: If it's supposed to be "exactly the same" as marriage,then what is the point of a different word?

trey

Exactly Jason. A good point. And they've done that here in California. Of course they've been _adding_ more instead of subtracting, but if they can give they can take away, especially if its just 'those gay couples' and not everyone.

I for one find 'Domestic Partnerships' (which my partner and I have here in CA) and Civil Unions somewhat like being given raw chicken when everyone else gets a nice roasted chicken with vegetables, mashed potatoes and gravy. We are starving, so we'll at least hold our nose and force the raw chicken down... but the roasted chicken dinner that everyone else gets is what we really need and deserve.

Galois

As I mentioned here, that is a significant problem of civil unions. I am only considering civil unions which are at least equal in law, as in Vermont. Possibly tomorrow I will write a little about domestic partnerships which is what I call it when there is any legal distinction (other than name) from marriage. Trey points out, however, another problem of even "equal" civil unions and that is even if there are no current distinctions, by separating it and giving it a distinct label you open yourself more to subsequent changes in the future.

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