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May 15, 2005

Comments

Marty

JK: The real purpose behind this amendment was to prevent dykes and faggots from being treated as though they were actually human beings.

In my opinion, it is childish temper tantrums like the one above, that does the most damage to your cause. I've been following this debate closely for two years now, and this is the first time i've heard the word "faggot" used anywhere. "Ignorant bigot" on the other hand...

Talk about "animus".

Jason Kuznicki

Marty, I used two purposefully offensive words among several thousand quite neutral and even-tempered ones. If this qualifies as a temper tantrum, then only a robot would never have them.

And as to animus, well, you bet. When my rights are attacked, there is only one legitimate response.

Marty

Jason, you have the same equal right to marry as anyone else in this country. Get used to being treated equally, regardless of your orientation.

Jason Kuznicki

Sorry, Marty, but I've heard that one before, and I don't find it an argument even worth rebutting anymore.

Marty

Yeah, i can't imagine why. You can't refute it. See, you aren't after equality -- you've already got that. No, you're after something "special", because you think that being gay makes you special. Sorry, but that isn't quite the same as equality now is it?

trey

yes, and I'm sure your comments would have struck segregationists as true.

"You black people have equal rights.. if you are white"

twisted logic Marty, very very twisted.

Galois

And an amendment which prohibited the celebration of Jewish holidays would, of course, not be a denial of equal protection because not only Jews, but Christians, Muslims, and everybody else would be prohbitied from celebrating them too. We would allow them all equally to celebrate Christian holidays, but those Jews shouldn't be after something "special" because they think that being Jewish makes them special.

Marty

trey, that's not much of an argument now is it?
galois, yours is no better.

c'mon, is this all you've got?

Jason Kuznicki

Actually, Marty, asking that two men be allowed to marry wouldn't be "special." You'd be allowed to do it, too.

Marty

So to make the field level for gay people, we have to lower the standards for everyone -- is that it?

Jason Kuznicki

You're a joke, Marty. Really.

Fitz

I don’t find Marty to be a joke?
If he is a joke, then so are huge swaths of the American people. (as am I)
Believe it or not (and I know ssm-opponents can fathom it, but avoid doing so)people all over the country are protecting the foundational & beleaguered institution of marriage against would be imitators.
The equal protection argument falls flat.
Galois religious analogy is fatally flawed because the American people put special protection for religious liberties in the Constitution.
To wit – no such protections have been inserted for sexual orientation.
Nor do such argument compel our government to conflate SS relationships with the institution of marriage.

Something is being missed here. The narcissistic tendency of SSM opponents to make this argument solely about their perceived individual rights
It quite telling that Jason Kuzniki writes – “””And as to animus, well, you bet. When my rights are attacked, there is only one legitimate response”””
When to date – no such rights exist. You cant impinge on a so called “right” until you have one. You cant lose something you never had. That’s what this debate is about- should SSM – become a civil right? The people are speaking, the courts are weighing in, and SCOTUS will eventually be heard from.
The more germane argument, and the one that SSM opponents are ignoring (in favor of a self –centered reliance on plea’s for special rights) is the public policy argument against SSM. (it is nicely summarized by below)

In the words of Mary Eberstadt (I quote)
"""For many years now, and often inadvertently, secular as well as religious researchers have been amassing facts that, properly understood, bolster the case for the traditional family and against its adversaries and would-be imitators. Some of that evidence, such as the harm to children of the fatherless household, is already widely acknowledged by mainstream writers and readers. Some of it, particularly evidence pertaining to the dark side of homosexuality, remains virtually taboo. When all of it is put together, however, this evidence shows that empirical fact is on the side of the traditional family."""

This is the general thrust- take, that large segments of the American people have concerning the institution of marriage. Before SSM proponents can convince people that their agenda is worthwhile they need to persuade people that protecting traditional marriage is unnecessary. So far the arguments of Jonathan Rauch have been unpersuasive (and rarely made). More often SSM proponents rely on the courts, individual rights arguments & calling people irrational bigots.


Its simply not selling..

Jason Kuznicki

"...to date – no such rights exist. You cant impinge on a so called 'right' until you have one. You cant lose something you never had."

So I suppose the rights of all slaves born into slavery were never violated? I imagine that all women who never had the right to vote were treated with perfect justice, because they can't lose something they didn't have? This is absurd. Merely because something is legal does not make it just or proper.

Further, government is not the source of our rights. Rights exist based on the nature of human beings themselves; governments exist to protect rights, a task that they perform only imperfectly. Part of protecting rights is to determine--hopefully with increasing accuracy--just what our rights really are. It's not an easy job.

Rights can be difficult to define, but one of them is certainly the right to form intimate and family associations, and to be free of undue attacks or burdens upon these associations. This is why governmetns recognize marriage in the first place: It's to protect the rights of individuals in this area of life.

If it looks like a "new" right is being created to recognize same-sex unions, this is only because our knowledge and understaning of rights is constantly evolving. At one time it was thought impossible that two people of the same sex might want to live their lives in an intimate union, and that they might also find themselves raising children. But now it is happening everywhere. The only question is whether the government will treat these people decently--by respecting their relationships like all others--or whether the government will use precedent as an excuse to shirk its duties.

Of course, you may wish to argue that same-sex intimate associations should not be protected, but merely gesturing at the legal status quo is no longer enough to make the case. As to your statistics, please cite sources. A great many of these are fabricated by unethical researchers hoping to make a buck by frightening people about the dangers of same-sex unions. Do note that granting legal recognition to same-sex unions will, if anything, mitigate many or even all of these drawbacks.

As to Marty being a joke--what am I supposed to think? First he says "you can't refute" that gays want special rights, not equality. Then when I ask for equality, he has the gall complain about it. You can't argue with nonsense like that.

Jason Kuznicki

"Before SSM proponents can convince people that their agenda is worthwhile they need to persuade people that protecting traditional marriage is unnecessary."

I also felt I should comment on this, which is quite mistaken in its reasoning.

I happen to think that protecting traditional marriage is quite necessary. I also think that the way to protect it is for the government to recognize exactly the same rights and privileges that have always been associated with traditional marriage.

The way to protect traditional marriage is not to invent a bogus threat from homosexuals. It's to fix the real threats that traditional marriage actually faces.

The way to protect traditional marriage is through proper marriage counseling, better attitudes in society toward the marriage covenant, better attitudes toward women on the part of men, and better attitudes toward men on the part of women. Churches, peers, the media, and so forth could probably do a better job in their responsibilities as well, even while it isn't clear to me what the government may or should to do help in this regard. But none of this--absolutely none of it--has anything to do with forbidding same-sex unions.

So, Fitz, don't buy the argument that supporters of same-sex marriage want traditional marriage to fail. We don't. We like traditional marriage. Many of us even have a new respect for traditional marriage based on firsthand experience of our own marriages, which, while not so traditional, still have quite important similarities with an institution that you and I both want to protect.

F. Rottles

Enactment of SSM would constitute state recognition of a private relationship that is not marriage. It is a non-marital alternative.

When a person enters an intimate relationship with someone of the same sex, a liberty is exercised, not denied.

If the man-woman combination was always as sterile as the single-sexed combination, there would be little, if any, point to elevating the private relationship of the couple.

Suppose there was no such thing as state recognition of marriage. What good reason would prompt society, through the state, to elevate the same-sex intimate relationship?

We do live in a society where the marital status is elevated and is preferred. It is a special status. So, apart from comparing the same-sex relationship to the marital relationship, why should SSM be conferred any sort of special status? It ain't due to equality.

Jason Kuznicki

F. Rottles-- Would you care to state openly whatever dark motive you're insinuating in your last sentence? Otherwise I would have a rather difficult time arguing against it.

Other than that, I'll try to answer your points. You write, "When a person enters an intimate relationship with someone of the same sex, a liberty is exercised, not denied."

This is certainly true. But when a state--as Nebraska did--prohibits gay people from making organ donation decisions for one another, a liberty is denied, not exercised. This was done for fear that somehow, in some fashion, gay organ donation declarations would in some indirect way come to compete with and therefore harm heterosexual marriage.

I'd say that that's going a bit too far.

"Suppose there was no such thing as state recognition of marriage. What good reason would prompt society, through the state, to elevate the same-sex intimate relationship?"

If there were no heterosexual marriage, then the state should create it, just as it should for same-sex marriage. Why? Because lifelong intimate partners of all types naturally desire to have certain contractual rights toward one another. They want to be able to make joint financial decisions easily and without hassle. They want joint child custody. They want naturalization rights if their partner is a foreigner. They want power of attorney, hospital visitation, inheritance rights, and so forth. Some of these rights can be obtained through other means, with difficulty and expense; others cannot be obtained at all in many cases.

This is why the state recognizes marriage at all, which would otherwise be solely a matter of individuals and faith communities. It's also why same-sex marriage should be recognized just like heterosexual marriage.

Marty

That's right Jason, of course it has nothing to do with what only men and women can do (make more men and women), it's because of our "natural instinct to enter into contracts" with each other.

Get real.

Jason Kuznicki

I consider this argument over. From first to last, Marty, you have been dishonest with everyone here. Putting words in my mouth is the last straw.

If you would even have bothered to read my post--instead of making up an argument that you preferred to attack--you would have seen that I view the government aspect of marriage as ONE part of a larger picture. The rest is provided by the individuals involved and their faith community. That's where something more than a contract comes into the picture. And it's not by instinct.

Really, your dishonesty is appalling. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Marty

Oh goodness, i think another tantrum is coming on.

Rereading your post, in which you attempt explain the institution of marriage, there's not a single mention of procreation, not a single glance at the one thing that makes same-sex relationships so darned inferior, and opposite-sex relationships so crucial to the future of mankind. It's as if you think these things are completely irrelevant.

And speaking of putting words in people's mouths, and dishonesty:

First he says "you can't refute" that gays want special rights, not equality. Then when I ask for equality, he has the gall complain about it. You can't argue with nonsense like that.

What i said was that with respect to marriage, gays ARE being treated equally (a point i defy you to refute). That's precisely the problem for you, because you insist that being gay makes you special!

Your myopia is appalling. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

Jason Kuznicki

Rereading your post, in which you attempt explain the institution of marriage, there's not a single mention of procreation, not a single glance at the one thing that makes same-sex relationships so darned inferior, and opposite-sex relationships so crucial to the future of mankind. It's as if you think these things are completely irrelevant.

I didn't attempt to explain "the institution of marriage," but merely the component of it that is offered by our government. (I notice, by the way, that you're being dishonest again, because I DID mention child custody, which comes automatically in marriage by virtue of procreation.)

The rest of marriage would take a book to explain, and it would certainly include some of the things that you mention, minus the gratuitous slur ("so darned inferior").

Childrearing, though, is only one facet, though certainly an important one, of a multifaceted institution. Infertile, chaste, and otherwise childless couples should also be included in any definition of marriage, meaning that there is no a priori reason to exclude same-sex couples merely on the basis of childrearing.

And again, I'm not asking for special treatment, just equal treatment, and a change, equally applied, to the equal treatment that is offered to all. Nothing special.

If you misunderstood this, then I am terribly sorry. But there remains NO justification for putting in quotation marks something that I never said. That's dishonesty, and again, it typifies your conduct throughout this thread.

I believe I have made my position as clear as I can make it--even making an exception for you despite your dishonesty. I consider my work to be done here, and further, I find it would be a waste of my time to discuss with you any more. It's not my practice to argue with those who deliberately fabricate quotes to support their positions, and I do hope you will refrain from this in the future.

Marty

JK: I'm not asking for special treatment, just equal treatment, and a change, equally applied, to the equal treatment that is offered to all. Nothing special.

So you want to trade one form of equal treatment for another form -- just one with a lower standard (sex doesn't matter). That makes very real sense actually, unlike the persistent dishonesty of your rhetoric -- that gays are being treated unequally because of their orientation.

And it's not that you can't meet the standard already in place -- you easily can. It's just that "you don't want to", or "don't think you should have to". You don't like the rules of the game -- even though you are perfectly capable of playing by them -- so you insist upon a "right" to change the rules for everyone. Sounds to me like you're asking for something very special indeed.

PS: i apologize for using quotations marks when summarizing the heart of your argument -- you got me. Next time i promise to use italics instead.

Galois

Marty: You once again go way over the line. You intentionally misrepresent others arguments as well as misquoting others. You keep challenging people to refute your patently false claim that gays are being treated equally as if you have never seen the pages of responses on this blog and others. I decide to humor you, by responding yet again, and all you can say is "trey, that's not much of an argument now is it?
galois, yours is no better". Of course, if someone says that to you, though, it must be a sign that your so-called argument is irrefutable. If you actually have something to contribute, Marty, fine. If you're just going to produce taunts and jabs and degrade others' families, please don't bother.

Jason: Some very good points about natural rights. The legal arguments are certainly there for equal rights and I will continue to make them, but sometimes it blinds me to the real issue which is that it would be unjust regardless.

Fitz: The religion analogy still stands for several reasons. First of all, Jews would not be denied the right to freely exercise religion, provided that religion were some form of Christianity, the same right that everyone else has. They just wouldn't have a special right to celebrate those Jewish holidays. Secondly, as Jason points out, the case of banning Jewish holidays would still be unjust even if the Constitution said nothing about religion. Thirdly, the Constitution says nothing about hippies and yet they are still entitled to equal protection rights. Fourthly, many Constitutions do explicitly forbid the denial of equal protection on account of sex. Finally, that you justify the inequality by stating there is no explicit protection on account of orientatin seems to be an admission that the treatment is unequal.

As for the Eberstadt quote, that is not a policy argument against same-sex marriage, it is merely an allusion to the "dark side of homosexuality" with no basis. We also saw pseudoscience in the eugenic theories with regards to notions of racial superiority. I have made plenty of policy arguments in favor of ssm on this blog, but even if I hadn't made a single one that would not change the inherent injustice of the baseless unequal treatment.

F Rottles: Your comment seems to be a bit misplaced. The Nebraska amendment would have allowed nonmarital relationships to seek all sorts of protections, provided those relationships were opposite-sex. So to say is simply a matter of preferring marriage is ridiculous. The question was why non-marital same-sex relationships should be singled out for the denial of any recognition whatsoever.

Marty

Q: Were the plaintiffs in this case denied a specific same-sex contract? Which one(s)?

Galois

What do you mean by "same-sex contract"?

Jason Kuznicki

Galois: It's certainly possible to have a situation of equality that is unjust. Your example, where even Hindus were forbidden from celebrating Jewish holidays, would be one such case. I would like to move from a situation that is equal but unjust to one group, into a situation that is equal and just for all.

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