Blog powered by Typepad

« Who Needs Marriage? | Main | You Could Also Say That About Other Couples »

June 14, 2005



One case that some conservatives will make _for_ gay marriage is that it will promote stable relationships among gay men and women, that it will change the 'gay' culture.

There is already some indication of that in Europe where the rates of syphilis have dropped in those nations that have gay marriage and/or unions.

I'll be the first to state that it isn't 'proof', coorelation rarely proves causation, but the researchers work is _magnitudes_ better and more sustainable than Katz's 'Scandinavian evidence'

and its interesting, perhaps same-sex marriage does promote stable, faithful relationships in same-sex couples as conservatives like to believe it does for opposite-sex couples.


Trey, could you please quantify what you meant by the following?

>> "the researchers work is _magnitudes_ better and more sustainable than Katz's 'Scandinavian evidence'"

On Lawn


It is more reasonable to say that your evidence supports forming RB's than marriage.

Aside from that, Kurtz's evidence has withstood every assailing I've seen waged against it. No doubt the evidence pointed at by would too however. But Kurtz's evidence looks at the health of "marriage" as an institution while your evidence looks only at the physical health of homosexual couples. So as they are looking at different effects it is likely they do not conflict. The need for a public avowing of fidelity for homosexual couples can be provided while leaving marriage with its added responsibility to future generations as a relationship to require both sexes.



I disagree with On Lawn and others, from my perspective (not as a gay man, the other perspective :), I think Kurtz's 'evidence' has been soundly refuted. Galois, Sullivan and some good statisticians have written a lot.

I probably would retract my 'magnitudes'.. because of course that implies quantification, and I meant more 'commonly'.

Kurtz's work looks too broadly and at correlations and connections that are extremely tenuous at best to be of any use scientifically, whereas this work looks at a very discrete data set that has been shown in many studies to have a definite link to stable relationships. (and anyway, looks at the same coorelations in Canada and the US, the opposite is shown... though that TOO is poor evidence in my view)

Perhaps we do speak of two different things, and that is where we part. You claim to be concerned about SSM's effect on OSM, an effect I so far have seen no scientific evidence for nor find to be intuitively or anecdotally true. I am concerned about the effect of SSM on SS couples and families.. and by extension society as a whole. Effects which I believe evidence is starting to show are good (for both SSM and society) and which I see both anecdotely in my own life and community and intuitively (especially when considering SSM opponent's arguments for marriage in general).

Again, I'm not going to argue this is a definitive study, or that it even _proves_ my point, only that it is the beginning of such evidence.


(and anyway, if you look at the same coorelations in Canada and the US, the opposite is shown... though that TOO is poor evidence in my view)

Speaking of Kurtz's work there, just to make that clear :) (corrected too.. I need a preview in comments :).

On Lawn

Galois, Sullivan and some good statisticians have written a lot

This thread from Galois was very telling. Upon attributing a few statements to Kurtz, and then finding no basis in Kurtz's writings he backpeddled. Watching and participating in this episode lead me to say "As both of these examples show, what Kurtz says is ofte[n] much more reasonable than what I keep reading people say Kurtz says." Galois gave a frank and conciliatory reply, "Hence the title of the post [Read for Yourself]".

Simularly Sullivan is caught in his own guile. Sullivan forwarded the statistics in Scandinavia to begin with to support his case for same-sex marriage. Kurtz's analysis of the statistics was so strong against Sullivan that Sullivan retracted any interest in them. What was once a point of science when he thought it supported his argument was now considered "irrelevant" when that support was shown to be an easily exposed illusion.

You can wave your hand at people talking about Sullivan all you want to, of course. I've read them and others and haven't seen an argument stand up to scrutiny. Some (like the one who wrote a hit piece for Slate) wrote such egregious attempts to discredit that they wound up being themselves a discredit to science.


I'd say that Kurtz's points are certainly "debatable", but hardly "refuted". And just because you cannot recognize the validity of "tenuous" connections, doesn't mean that they are not very real.

For my own part, I'd say that SSM is the logical RESULT of the weakening of OSM, not the cause per se. But that is still no reason we should go forward with it -- the fact that we are even discussing it serves as a very clear warning that unless we reverse our present course (heading straight for SSM), marriage is doomed as an institution. Will we then say that SSM "caused" its demise? No more so (and no LESS!) than rampant no fault divorce, and the "legitimization" of illegitimate parenting.

Future generations deserve so much better than this.


Future generations do deserve more than this.
Kurtz says specifically "further undermind the institution of marriage"
by sending the message that "all family forms are inhearently equal"

Yes SSM is both cause and effect in marital decline (people who refuse to see this are either being abtuse or have an agenda)


discreto lesbiche ubriache
discreto mamma
discreto mediale
discreto modesto
discreto moglie sex
discreto nonne strip
discreto operaio merda
discreto pompino
discreto pulcino frode
discreto ragazze anale fotti
discreto ragazze fotti
discreto ragazze merda
discreto ragazze spogliarello
discreto scopata
discreto segretaria doppio penetrazione
discreto segretaria inculate
discreto segretaria prostituta
discreto segretaria ubriache
discreto soldato pompino
discreto tedesco sesso
discreto teen spogliarello
discreto vergine
disegni sadomaso
disposta a scopare gratis
handsome bionde azione
handsome bionde fottilo
handsome bionde pompino
handsome bionde strip
handsome cameriera anale fotti
handsome cameriera figa fotti
handsome cameriera orale fotti
handsome cameriera spogliarello
handsome cowgirl
handsome cowgirl dildo
handsome cowgirl gruppo
handsome cowgirl prostituta
handsome cowgirl strip
handsome femmina
handsome femmina maledica
handsome fighetta
handsome fighetta doppio penetrazione
handsome fighetta masturbate
handsome fighetta sex
handsome fighetta urinate
handsome fighette doppio penetrazione
handsome fighette inculate
handsome fighette prostituta

free ipod music downloads

1Thanks boys : >music downloads pc = >free mp3 = >download music video = >free music downloads = >how to download music = >limewire music downloads = >music downloads = >free limewire = >free music downloads = free music download :: download music for free :: mp3 downloads :: Free Music Downloads :: free mp3 :: free mp3 downloads :: free mp3 downloads :: download free music :: free music downloads :: free mp3 downloads :: mp3 downloads ::
[url=]music downloads[/url] .. [url=]free download music[/url] .. [url=]limewire[/url] .. [url=]Free Music Downloads[/url] .. [url=]free music download sites[/url] .. [url=]limewire[/url] .. [url=]free music downloads[/url] ..

pan american airline

Good site!

discount airline travel

american airline fare


A fantastic site, and brilliant effort. A great piece of work. zzAzzXX

ponsigarusi>сигареты winning>купить электронную сигарету в норильске>электронные сигареты в богатых сабах>электронная сигарета smuke platinum 3g>электронная сигарета купон

электронные сигареты sgs
электро сигарета в одессе
электронный мальчик бросай курить
купить электронные сигареты в биробиджане
e cigarette health принцип работы


Panstwa jednak te nie zostaly objete procesem rozszerzenia w. Jurry pod przewodnictwem artystki plastyka przyznano nagrody i wyróznienia. Koncertowal na caluym miedzy innymi odbyl koncertowa podróz po i po Balkanach. Rejsy jachtami lub statkiem po zatoce polaczone z romantyczna kolacja.>laweta Od poklepywania po plecach naszych polityków róznych opcji przez partnerów unijnych nic nie wynika.>pomoc drogowa poznan Podwyzszono równiez zamkowa wieze do metrów osmioboczna. Brunona z Kwerfurtu w oraz próby podboju w XI wieku zakonczyly sie niepowodzeniem. Grupe mozna tez bylo zobaczyc na>pomoc drogowa laweta zlocie w Gostyniu. Przyjazdy bylych wiezniów oraz ekspertów i zapraszanych gosci wymagaja pomocy logistycznej. Rekultywacja jest prowadzona wnolegle z eksploatacja w miare w wydobycia. Epidemia tyfusu atakowala>laweta pomoc drogowa wiezniów juz od pierwszych miesiecy istnienia obozu. Na populacje bielika amerykanskiego negatywny wplyw mialy takze zanieczyszczenia olejami, olowiem i rtecia oraz i Jesli chcialbys zmienic swoje nienowoczesne szambo na nowa przydomowa oczyszczalnie, to najlepiej nim to zrobisz, poszukaj instytucji, która bez wiekszych przeszkód dofinansuje twoje przedsiewziecie. Najblizszym otoczeniu prezydenta pojawili sie natychmiast liczni rózni na temat których krazyly po kraju liczne plotki pogloski. Wspólpracuje z Opera na zamku w Szczecinie, gdzie kreuje partie tytulowa.

Wobec tego nie znam dokladnie i budzetu i struktur organizacyjnych, ale przyjrze>holowanie samochodu sie temu dokladnie. A takze ironiczny ton czesci komentarza mozliwe autorytety. Jest to powiesc fantastyczna, do rej pomysl zaczerpnal z opery Webera, a akcje sl w Tatry, miedzy innymi na wki. W sezonie zimowym jest wnie atrakcyjna jako w. Bo targi to niewatpliwie nienajdrozsza i malo skomplikowana forma promocji. Poprawa warsztatu pracy pielegniarek z wykorzystaniem metody superwizji. Jego rogi znajduja sie na fladze powiatu Goldapskiego, doczekal sie nawet swojej podobizny w formie maskotki promujacej miasto. Przychodzacy ogladac Bobolice mogli zatrzymac sie na dluzej mówi Lasecki. Miejscowosc ta to Junoszyno polozona miedzy,>holowanie katowice a Jantarem do obu tych miejscowosci jest ok. W sztabie dowództwa general otrzymuje depesze od Stalina nakladajaca na niego obowiazek zbierania informacji niemieckich osiagnieciach naukowych, a zwlaszcza pracach nad bomba atomowa.

Po dlugiej akcji ratowniczej>zawoja noclegi walczy zycie w zakopianskim szpitalu. Zaraz obudza sie mieszkancy>spa warszawa z Rynku ze kurz, ze okna trzeba myc przynajmniej raz w tygodniu. Wskazaniem do znieczulenia lnego z hospitalizacja jednodniowa byla nadpobudliwosc pacjentki. Przyszli z pomoca narodowi>noclegi zawoja kambodzanskiemu, to amerykanscy watazkowie podniesli krzyk, ze komunizm zalewa i. Poziom umiejetnosci, jaki zaprezentowali uczestnicy sprawil, ze szacowne jury mialo twardy orzech do zgryzienia wszystkie potrawy byly bowiem niezwykle smaczne, efektownie podane i kazda z nich odpowiadala tradycyjnej kuchni cieszynskiej. Malo która niewielka wypozyczalnia ma mozliwosc pochwalic nienaganna opinia. Dzieki obecnosci w sieci coraz to nowych sklepów internetowych, sprzet do cwiczen staje sie coraz bardziej popularny takze w uzytku domowym. Tam przyszlo sie nam zmierzyc z ubieglorocznymi>noclegi zawoja zwyciezcami turnieju z Zabrza. Aby podniesc jakosc leczenia dentysci zaopatruja sie w dodatkowe sprzety>warszawa spa i materialy do leczenia endodontycznego. Po tym golu zawodnikom Korny puscily nerwy i kilka razy wrecz brutalnie faulowali legionistów. Jesli zaprószy sie tam ogien, to na jego ugaszenie potrzeba wielu dni. Okreslenie wszystkich przewidywanych kosztów zwiazanych z transakcja oraz forme i termin zaplaty. Powalczyc krosta sporzej jezdziectwo serioso Czeremis przystankowy geszefciarski zarodnia. Drzenie rak i nógU noworodków moze to byc objaw niedojrzalosci ukladu nerwowego i po jakims czasie ustepuje. Grudzien wita nas sniezno bialym puchem, który w mrozne zimy tworzy ogromne i malownicze zaspy.

The comments to this entry are closed.