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June 08, 2005

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On Lawn

Op-Ed,

Of all your reasons, the only reason left standing for the discrimination and exclusivity you support in SB1073 is your own prejudice based on sexual preference, which you tucked into your fourth paragraph:

I am also arguing for same-sex marriage because it would provide the potential of stable and secure relationships for gays and lesbians...[emphasis added]

You know that really hits the circular reasoning that I was addressing and you do it more succinctly. We've seen before where Galois acclaims stability in homosexual relationships as a newfound phenomenon. We've watched as even equality and inclusion are suddenly unimportant when the distinct needs of the rif-raff included would (apparently) threaten the stability of homosexual relationships.

When we step back and look at this as a whole we find the simultaneous pleading that (1) homosexual relationships are stable enough for marriage (even to asserting that marriage will fail without them), and (2) homosexual relationships require marriage to stabilize them. Whether by children or privileges recast as "rights", the reasoning keeps swirling down the same circular reasoning.

John,

Like I said before when my posts started overshadowing Galois, this isn't my site. As you know, I do have a site I contribute to. I am also aware of your website. You have asked Op-Ed and myself that question there before. Op-Ed answered already, but as your question deserves a thorough response and has been weighing on my mind how to reply, I have taken my time. I hope you don't mind, but your question really hits home like in ways I can't express fully. I think I have a good idea what to say, and I've posted it in reply to your question there.

Marty

JH: What do you think of procreation rights as the distinction between Civi lUnions and marriage?

I think the point is moot unless you plan to start enforcing the law. You say that sex outside of marriage is illegal -- so what are your plans in that regard?

In principle what you say is perfectly valid. In practice, it is almost archaic.

Mr. John Howard

No, no, Marty, we don't need to enforce fornication laws to make this work. They don't even have to be on the books. Why do you think that?

It makes no difference that people have sex outside of marriage, what matters is that no same-sex couple would be given the right to procreate INSIDE marriage. They would be restricted to Civil Unions and not given the right to procreate. We'd also need an egg and sperm law to stop people from doing SSP outside marriage. The point is, marriage would be unchanged, it would continue to give the legal right to have children, and there would be a distiction, a real valid meaningful distinction that everyone should be able to agree on. The fact that people don't need to be married to have children doesn't change anything.

Is that not enough of a distinction for you? You could argue against the civil unions too, then, or try to limit the protections that come with them. But at least we'd have a starting point, a real distinction that reserves the essential sine qua non right of marriage to opposite sex couples.

Mr. John Howard

By the way, laws are enforced by the people themselves. When a girl says "not til we are married", she is enforcing the law, and it certainly helps that there IS a law so she can have an excuse to say that that the boy hopefully respects. The police don't actually enforce the laws, they just catch people that chose to not enforce the laws themselves. Fear of being caught encourages people to enforce the laws, but sometimes just respect for the law is enough, even when there is no fear of getting caught.

Marty

John, if people had any respect for laws against "fornication", we wouldn't even be having this discussion, and Galois would be posting funny little math problems on his blog.

:P

Galois

Chairm,

Before getting to specifics, I would note that once again our biggest disagreement seems to be based on you misundestanding my argument. I do not claim that a vote for the Oregon measure was a vote for civil unions. I clam that a vote for the Oregon measure was NOT a vote AGAINST civil unions. (In other words, the Oregon measure did not address civil unions, and yes that includes civil unions as the term has been used where passed in VT and CT). Similarly I do not claim Nashif and the Oregon Family Council are being hypocritical for supporting a legislative process and then opposing a bill as part of that legislative process. I do, however, claim they are hypocritcal for insisting that the measure was not about civil unions, but only about marriage and the legislative process, and now after the fact implying that the measure was about civil unions as well and using that (and not arguments against the bill itself) to try to derail the legislation. And now for some of your specific claims...

I'd add the observation that if the SSM advocates insist that courts must strike down the man-woman criterion of marriage due to unjust sex discrimination, then, they must find the same-sex criterion of civil union to be unjust as well.

Well yes. If the gender classification in marriage is struck down, then there would be no justification for the gender criterion in civil unions. If, however, the gender classification in marriage is upheld, then there would be justification for the gender classification in civil unions. Namely, a person is situated differently because of her or her gender because such classification would determine whether they could otherwise marry. Another way of looking at this would be to note that the civil union bill only uses gender indirectly, by first using gender to determine whether it would be valid as a marriage. Only if it is invalid as a marriage could it then be valid as a civil union.

According to the Massa Court's advisory opinion on civil union as a distinct alternative to marriage, there is no difference between marital status and civil union status. Just the label.

I had thought the crux of their opinion was that the label itself made a huge difference. This is also the view taken by others including those that like me that view civil unions as insufficient, as well as those like Sen. Westlund, Gov. Rell, and Elizabeth Marquardt, who view it necessary to prohibit marriage for same-sex couples, but who neverthelesss support civil unions with all the same statewide rights and obligations. This must also be the view of the Vermont legislature. After the Baker decision the easiest thing to do would have been to extend marriage to same-sex couples. But instead it was imporant to them to use a different instiution, civil unions. Obviously they felt there was some significance to this. Likewise why would CT pass civil unions instead of marriage? Because marriage would not pass. There were obviously at least enough people who drew a distinction between civil unions and marriage, for one to pass, but not the other. Likewise in Oregon, why wasn't at least VT/CT civil unions included in the measure? The drafters didn't think it would pass with that in there. They knew that there were some people out there (like Westlund) who opposed same-sex, but who supported--or at least were open to the idea of--civil unions as in VT or CT. They suspected at least the possibility that it was enough people to determine the outcome of the vote.

The Vermont model did the same thing and although it was enacted by the legislature it was forced directly by the court.

It was not forced by the court. At the very least they could have gone with marriage instead. Why would they go with civil unions if there is absolutely no difference between the two? I should also note that Vermont could have pushed for a constitutional amendment, but chose not to do so.

Following the Vermont model in light of the Oregon amendment campaign, and the ratification of the amendment, is very contradictory.

Even If it were a contradiction it is one that we all know people are capable of maintaining, and one the measure's drafters were well aware of. For them to know pretend that nobody could hold such contradictory views is ridiculous. Personally I don't see the contradiction.

While I cannot speak for Elizabeth, it is fair to say that not all such voters are inclined to make civil union everything that marriage is, except for the label.

True. It is also fair to say, though, there are other voters out there like Elizabeth. Again I'm not saying that anyone who voted for the measure would support this civil union bill. I'm saying that a significant portion of voters would. Her position is neither unique nor unheard of.

A large portion would see the Vermont model as the enactment of SSM, and the contradiction of the special status of marriage.

How do you know what portion would see it this way and what portion would see it like Marquardt, Westlund, and Rell?

But they'd respect the democratic process in which the legislature, not the courts, made changes to the law in this regard.

Exactly. That's another good point, that I haven't stressed enough. The measure's supporters also spent a lot of time emphasizing that what they were most upset about was the process of a court deciding this or some county board meeting in secret. Some people voted for the amendment because it was their only opportunity to make sure the legislature decided this issue. So now the legislature is tyring to reach decisions on this issue.

I think you overstate your case by claiming that a prominent amendment supporter in Oregion had referred to the legislative product, rather than the forum, in Vermont.

I believe you are overstating my case. It should be clear that when the time came for the legislature to discuss civil unions, the model in Vermont would be a possibility. If it weren't then when she made reference to Vermont it should have been not as an example of what could be done, but an example of what could NOT be done.

Some might have thought their vote would promote the democratic process of which Elizabeth had also made mention.

Exactly. Thus their vote said nothing about civil unions one way or the other, just the process that should be used.

You may assert that the amendment left the door wide open for civil union to be equated to marital status, but it is not based on the actual vote nor the express meaning of the amendment.

I agree. It is based on what the amendment did not say, and the explanations given for the amendment by it supporters. You may assert that VT style civil unions were being taken off the table, but that is not based on the actual vote, nor the text or context of the amenment.

The proposed civil union bill contradicts the notion that a vote for the amendment was a vote to protect the special status of marriage in Oregon.

If by special you mean the notion that no other status should have the same rights and protections of marriage, then yes it contradicts this notion. In other words it is evidence that this notion is false. The bill is sponsored by a Senator who also campaigned on behalf of the measure.

Such a vote was for recognition of one type of union as being validated as possessing the only status from which all marital privileges, responsibilities, and protections flowed. But it left room for other alternatives under the label, civil union, or whatever other label might be selected.

Who are you to tell Senator Westlund what his vote was for? It was clear that a vote left room for other alternatives under the label civil union. It was also clear that civil unions generally provide all the statewide rights and obligations of marriage. So there was no reason to believe that the measure closed off the possibilty of such civil unions. If it was intended to do so then (1) the drafter should have included that in the amendment and (2) the supporters should have said that such civil unions were being taken off the table.

Galois, surely you can see how supporters of the amendment would expect that in light of ratification of such an amendment there would be a legislative path open for some form of civil union that did not equate civil union status with marital status.

Of course. And surely you can see that people like Sen. Westlund would expect in light of the assurances given, there would a path for the standard form of civil union woul not be CLOSED by the amendment.

Keep in mind that Vermont has not ratified a marriage amendment. Neither has Massachussetts. Nor Conneticut. The Vermont model is a model sans marriage amendment.

Well Massachusetts civil unions actually would be as part of a mariage amendment, but in any case I fail to see the relevance. Whether expressed as a statute or an amendment it is clear that some support marriage being defnied as the union of a man and a woman, and don't want that to change, while also supporting the concept of civil unions that make available the rights and obligations of marriage.

I think it is dubious to claim that the campaign appealed to voters to bide their time and await the Vermont model.

Yes. And it is equally dubious to claim that the campaign did appeal to voters who wanted the Vermont model, or at least wanted to consider it.


Mr. John Howard

Marty, dammit, forget about fornication already, OK? Just concentrate on the concept of banning SSP. Think about a CU bill that said something like "all the rights of marriage except the right to procreate". Just think about that all by itself. Is there anything you don't like about it? You certainly don't think that CU's shoud grant procreatin rights, do you?

CU's for same-sex partners ought to be able to stand all by itself to prevent people from doing SSP (the main goal), except people now would think they could use SSP even if they didn't get a marriage license to procreate. So, we would also need a law (the egg and sperm law) that banned SSP flat out, with no mention of marriage in that law. That would be enough to stop SSP, but if we enacted that law and also allowed same-sex couples to marry, it would strip marriage of procreain rights. That's why we also need to create CU's that were just like marriage but stripped of procreation rights.

We don't need to stop fornication. We don't really need to create CU's at all, but it is offered as an olive branch, a SOLUTION that should make everyone happy.

op-ed

as well as those like Sen. Westlund, Gov. Rell, and Elizabeth Marquardt, who view it necessary to prohibit marriage for same-sex couples, but who neverthelesss support civil unions with all the same statewide rights and obligations.

Clearly your understanding of Elizabeth's position is as wrong as your understanding of the Oregon voter.

it also seems like the domestic partnership/civil union option stands for about, oh, 6 months before crumbling and the whole thing just becomes marriage. And I don’t know what to do about that, because I’m all for rights and protections for gay and lesbian couples and their kids. I just don’t want those rights and protections to require redefining marriage in a way that leaves many more kids vulnerable.

Once again demonstrating that you'll advance any theory, no matter how fanciful, so long as it drives to your predetermined conclusion.

Habby

"All our young lives we search for someone to love.
Someone who makes us complete.
We choose partners and change partners.
We dance to a song of heartbreak and hope...
all the while wondering if somewhere, somehow,
there's someone perfect...who might be searching for us."
~The Wonder Years

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The debate still continues.

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